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Post by phil900ss on Oct 7, 2016 11:43:40 GMT
I have seen various reports/suggestions for disposing of old flares safely and legally. Do we have any specific policy or is there any specific legislation now, covering disposal? It's certainly too far to pop over to France if they still have their collection buckets but otherwise I guess being inland, bonfire night isn't too far away.
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Post by sheila on Oct 7, 2016 13:39:50 GMT
You obviously know Phil that letting them off other than for the purpose for which they are made is illegal! You can phone Milford Haven Coastguard Operation Centre on 01646 690909 as I believe that they will take them for disposal. By the way I believe that the RNLI suggest that you keep old flares that look in good condition even if they are out of date, in case of emergency better an old flare than none at all.
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Post by phil900ss on Oct 8, 2016 18:22:54 GMT
Many thanks Sheila, I will give Milford Haven a ring. I really think I should be less facetious. Let alone setting them off illegally, I wouldn't try setting off an out of date flare anyway, having seen too many times what can go wrong.
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Post by ishmael on Oct 22, 2016 21:35:59 GMT
I understand from Penarth marina:
'This has been a tricky issue of late. I was of the understanding that the only option was to drop the flares at Milford Coast Guard, however Wigmore Wright Team Marine now have a contract with a commercial company to take flares away at a reasonable cost. Prices are £2.10 for a parachute rocket flare, £1.30 for a hand flare and £2.60 for Life Smoke flares. This is a very convenient solution. If you do want to dispose of the flares free of charge then the process is to call Milford Haven Coastguard on 01646 690909 and make an appointment to drop off the flares at Milford on a midweek morning. The Coast Guard will only take flares from pleasure vessels. Obviously you cannot throw your out of date flares away in the general rubbish and anyone identified doing this at the marina will be dealt with appropriately'.
It must be a problem that we all have. I tried to convince Stuart over at Force 4 that as he'd sold them to me he had to take them back and offer discount against new flares. He was ...ummm well, not exactly convinced by this argument. Like many people I have an increasing collection of out of date explosives. I begrudge paying Wigmore Fright good money to take away flares, but then I do not want them on the boat and certainly not at home. I've heard of one club member who has a collection dating back many years stored in a metal box in his garden.
If there's enough interest in getting rid of old flares I'm happy to give Milford Coastguard a ring and see how many they would take in one go.
Certainly do not try setting them off. I've heard a wonderful story from a club member who nearly inadvertently set fire to his neighbours house with a parachute flare! But on a serious note, out of date flares are dangerous.
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Post by ishmael on Oct 22, 2016 22:24:24 GMT
PRESS RELEASE
Ramora UK launches first of its kind solution for disposal of Time Expired Pyrotechnics (TEPs)
21/09/2016
Just found this:
'Ramora UK has launched a cost effective, compliant solution, allowing easy disposal of Time Expired Pyrotechnics (TEPs) under their Explosive Safety Scheme (ESS).
The company, a global leader in bomb disposal services, are proud to offer all the required training and equipment to become a licensed TEP drop off point, for a fixed monthly retainer. This will allow many commercial and recreational boaters easy access to facilities where they can legally dispose of their expired flares or other distress-signal pyrotechnics. Currently, there is no consolidated solution in place for this, with only a few police stations and MCA approved stores accepting limited amounts, making Ramora UK's solution the first of its kind'.
This probably means that the Coastguard will re-direct you to this lot and I wouldn't mind betting that this is what 'Wiggies' have set up; Ramora collection point. So the answer is that if you want to safely get rid of your old flares you've got to pay!
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Post by sheila on Oct 23, 2016 6:41:21 GMT
Very interesting A. Thanks. I love the "Wigmore Fright" bit!
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Fred
Member of CYC 
Runagane
Posts: 274
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Post by Fred on Oct 23, 2016 8:35:35 GMT
PRESS RELEASE Ramora UK launches first of its kind solution for disposal of Time Expired Pyrotechnics (TEPs) 21/09/2016 Just found this: 'Ramora UK has launched a cost effective, compliant solution, allowing easy disposal of Time Expired Pyrotechnics (TEPs) under their Explosive Safety Scheme (ESS). The company, a global leader in bomb disposal services, are proud to offer all the required training and equipment to become a licensed TEP drop off point, for a fixed monthly retainer. This will allow many commercial and recreational boaters easy access to facilities where they can legally dispose of their expired flares or other distress-signal pyrotechnics. Currently, there is no consolidated solution in place for this, with only a few police stations and MCA approved stores accepting limited amounts, making Ramora UK's solution the first of its kind'. This probably means that the Coastguard will re-direct you to this lot and I wouldn't mind betting that this is what 'Wiggies' have set up; Ramora collection point. So the answer is that if you want to safely get rid of your old flares you've got to pay! If they sell them they should take out of date ones |
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Post by ishmael on Oct 23, 2016 10:07:57 GMT
The seller is under no obligation to take back the goods. The goods were fit for purpose at the time of sale. This is the discussion that I had with Stuart at Force 4 and in fairness he was equally concerned with regard to the situation that has developed with regards to time expired flares. I understand that he had made some suggestion to the directors of Force 4 as clearly having a 'returned flares amnesty' would result in a lot of people in the shop, no doubt buying new flares or whatever. The problem is handling what could potentially be a large volume of unstable TEPs. Clearly Ramora have addressed this as a commercial venture. Returning your time expired 'Offshore Flare Pack' is now an expensive business.
The problem may be that because of the costs in purchasing and then disposing of flares people will be dissuaded from purchasing. However with DSC and EPIRBs etc why do you want a load of fireworks on the boat? For the cost of an Offshore Flare Pack you are well on the way to buying an EPIRB, which I suggest has a far higher chance of resulting in a rescue compared to a flare.
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Post by phil900ss on Oct 25, 2016 18:52:46 GMT
This seems to have opened a proverbial 'can of worms', and all I wanted was to dispose of a couple of old flares!
However, I have been in the 'Fire and Safety Industry' for some forty years and have seen 'best of intent', suggestions going seriously wrong. I refer here to the reported suggestion from the RNLI to keep old flares that 'look in good condition'. Certainly best of intent, but before anyone does this, can I point out that a) an old flare that does not perform as designed, can cause serious damage including fatality. b) Should the worst happen, who will take responsibility and accept liability. c) Would your insurance pay out for any damage and in fact is your boat insured if you carry old flares on board.
I certainly welcome a professional disposal method, and bearing in mind the cost of boating, a couple of pounds to safely dispose of the flares doesn't seem too bad.
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Post by sheila on Oct 26, 2016 16:03:47 GMT
All interesting stuff and worth knowing.
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Post by ishmael on Oct 29, 2016 18:23:08 GMT
As Phil indicates in boating terms the professional disposal of old flares appears to be the way forward.
Assuming that mine is a reasonably 'typical' boat then between the club members there are I suggest thousands of out of date flares (TEPS)all becoming more unstable with time and as Phil says, all being unsafe to use. Fortunately in many years of sailing I've never had to let of a flare in a distress situation. However I've now seen a demonstration of an 'LED Flare' (not laser) which is available at your friendly local chandlery for a tad under £100.00. The advantages of these are (a) Very safe to use, no chance of getting burnt or setting fire to your sinking boat. (b) Easy to use, simply twist the handle. (b) Lasts some 6 hours, which is a lot longer than a couple of minutes with a pyrotechnic. I also see that Ocean Safety Ltd who must be one of the countries leading distributors of life rafts etc. are now promoting LED flares. However as I understand it LED fares are not a recognised form of distress. Not sure what the RYA view on all of this is but I'm sure someone is bound to know.
It would also be interesting to find out what the view of insurance companies is comparing a boat carrying a load of out of date flares to a boat with no pyrotechnics but a set of LED flares. Does anybody know what the French view of boats with LED flares is? They seem to check everything. The Irish coastguard view of my boat being sailed singled handed was that my equipment was deficient as I did not have a Dan Buoy. I was too tired to explain to him that without having somebody to throw it a Dan Buoy wasn't much use. Anyway I digress. The question is, 'Do you invest a couple hundred quid in an expensive Offshore Flare Pack every three years, or do you buy a couple of LED Flares which you can safely keep forever?
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Post by allan on Oct 30, 2016 13:05:47 GMT
Unless things have changed in the last year, I can give the French view. They check boats for out of date flares and have been known to fine people if they find some. If you accept their warning politely, as I did, they let you go. If you don't have flares they don't mind. The principle is, you are subject to the law of your flagged country, which they are not responsible for checking, but you must not endanger life and property in their country. I can't see that an LED flare would endanger life or property.
My personal view is that I will no longer have 2000 year old technology on my boat. PLBs and LED flares are the way to go.
Allan
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Fred
Member of CYC
Runagane
Posts: 274
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Post by Fred on Oct 30, 2016 18:37:23 GMT
Unless things have changed in the last year, I can give the French view. They check boats for out of date flares and have been known to fine people if they find some. If you accept their warning politely, as I did, they let you go. If you don't have flares they don't mind. The principle is, you are subject to the law of your flagged country, which they are not responsible for checking, but you must not endanger life and property in their country. I can't see that an LED flare would endanger life or property. My personal view is that I will no longer have 2000 year old technology on my boat. PLBs and LED flares are the way to go. Allan May be worth asking the local R Y A to let flares off just before the go out of date. May be good practice for all save taking them to Milford when out of date that what I did last time. |
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Post by ishmael on Oct 31, 2016 19:48:30 GMT
Fred.
I don't think many members will be clamouring to ask the RYA to let off flares which are still in date and I'm not sure that the RYA would want to do this anyway.
The purpose of this thread is to identify that the Coastguard in Milford will be reluctant to accept TEPs when there is a commercial facility available.
The general consensus seems to be that the best way forward is to get rid of your out of date flares as soon as possible and invest money in PLB's and LED flares. What the position with people racing in the channel? Do the race officials stipulate that you've got to have flares, or do they accept LED's?
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Post by clarinettist on Nov 2, 2016 10:45:24 GMT
Does anyone else remember the RNLI talk on distress signals last year? I'm sure one member reported that Bristol City council had a facility for receiving out of date flares.However, I've had a trawl through their web pages and can find nothing.
I'd certainly be interested in packing my old flares off to MH if anyone was going, but with all those unstable explosives in the boot we would probably need a police escort!
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Post by sheila on Nov 2, 2016 13:00:45 GMT
Andrew you mentioned in a previous post "not sure what the RYA view is on this". I can't find anything on the RYA site about disposal of flares but here is a quote from their Calling for Help/Safety Info page
The RYA's table of guidelines for pleasure vessels under 13.7m in length, outlines the combinations of equipment including flares, EPIRB, and Digital Selective Calling (DSC) marine radio, you could consider carrying and using to indicate that you need assistance, depending upon the type of your vessel and where you use it.
Modern technology
Press and hold the red button on your DSC VHF and assuming power and an aerial it will transmit your distress alert until another station acknowledges it; activated, an EPIRB will transmit for about 48hours, indicating that you need help and telling the Search and Rescue authorities where your EPIRB is; fire a parachute flare and you have to cross your fingers, hope that someone is close enough, that they were looking in the right direction during the 40 seconds it will burn for, they see it and that they react.
Modern technology provides safer and more reliable options for distress alerting than flares, and presuming such technology is carried aboard a pleasure vessel, the owner may now wish to consider reducing their complement of flares.
Electronic Visual Distress Signals (EVDS) – often referred to as “laser flares” – are hand-held non-pyrotechnic devices. EVDS are available to buy and are being offered as alternatives to pyrotechnic flares. Whilst the cost, safety of use, ease of testing and disposal of these items might be attractive, EVDS are not currently included within the list of internationally recognised distress signals (Annex IV of COLREG) and should not be relied upon to signal you need assistance unless they emit a signal which is in that list (e.g. SOS). See MCA MIN 464 for a more detailed explanation.
Location - the final mile
Simply telling someone you need help may however not be enough; they also need to be able to locate you. Search and Rescue (SAR) services, equipped with radar and specialist homing equipment, may not need anything further, but in many instances locating the vessel in need of help in the “final mile” can be challenging, especially if the rescuer is another small craft.
Traditionally a handheld red flare at night time or in poor visibility or an orange smoke by day has been the most effective solution for this “final mile” pinpointing of the vessel in distress. EVDS do now however provide a viable alternative.
Non-traditional flares
It is now possible for a pleasure vessel under 13.7m (which is not by law required to carry flares) to be equipped for distress alerting without carrying traditional pyrotechnic flares. An alerting device listed in COLREG such as EPIRB (ideally with GPS and a homing device) or DSC marine radio set (correctly connected to the GPS) which is suitable for the intended area of operation together with some form of EVDS for location in the final mile may be a suitable combination.
Download the guidelines
The RYA's table of guidelines for pleasure craft under 13.7m in length, provides guidance for skippers on the types of emergency distress alerting and locating equipment they can choose to carry based on distance from the coast and GMDSS communications sea areas.
It seems to me that basically they are saying that EPIRBs and DSC radio is the most reliable way of calling for help.
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